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	<title>Comments on: Ask Us: Do Lenders REALLY Need All That PRIVATE Information?</title>
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	<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/</link>
	<description>Real Estate, Insight, Statistics, Gossip, &#38; News...With a Twist and Some Flavor</description>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-21388</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 19:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-21388</guid>
		<description>the reason is for fraud prevention do you know how many people create one tax return to send to the bank and then they have a totally differnt one that they file with the irs. thats all its about. thats for the 4506 form as for tax returns all pages there is alot on your tax returns besides your income and the banks want to make sure you really can afford to pay them back. for instance if you have multiple properties or if your self employed and your expenses out weigh your income. like they said your asking for alot of money with not giving them the info. would you lend someone a majority of your money without asking them how they will pay you back and then making sure what they say is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the reason is for fraud prevention do you know how many people create one tax return to send to the bank and then they have a totally differnt one that they file with the irs. thats all its about. thats for the 4506 form as for tax returns all pages there is alot on your tax returns besides your income and the banks want to make sure you really can afford to pay them back. for instance if you have multiple properties or if your self employed and your expenses out weigh your income. like they said your asking for alot of money with not giving them the info. would you lend someone a majority of your money without asking them how they will pay you back and then making sure what they say is true.</p>
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		<title>By: noearch</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11716</link>
		<dc:creator>noearch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11716</guid>
		<description>...and to the person wanting a new loan or re-fi, be prepared to question everything the bank asks you and tell them that all of this information is STRICTLY PRIVATE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and to the person wanting a new loan or re-fi, be prepared to question everything the bank asks you and tell them that all of this information is STRICTLY PRIVATE.</p>
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		<title>By: Bank Employee</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11715</link>
		<dc:creator>Bank Employee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11715</guid>
		<description>RS Form 4506-T allows lenders to verify that the tax return copy (stating w-2 wages, investment income, sole proprietorship income, capital gains, rental property income, s corp, partnership, LLC and or trust income) match was filed with the IRS. Prior to banks requiring borrower signatures on this form; borrowers would inflate income numbers to qualify for loans that their IRS filed income would not allow them to qualify.  This is only one small example of how Banks/Federal regulators are slow to find a solution to fraud. It will take many years for the banks/regulators to undo the mess that has been unfolding for the past few years. 

The current environment is full documentation required; meaning every penny of income, assets and existing outstanding debt is verified.  If a borrower wishes to refinance their existing mortgage or apply for a 1st time mortgage, be prepared for the overwhelming documentation requested by your lender. 

As for privacy concerns, every bank employee must sign a document, with penalty of termination; to state that we will safeguard all customer and prospective customer &quot;sensitive&quot; information. Bank&#039;s are under Federal Regulations to ensure that their employees comply with those regulations, with fear of substantial penalties and damages for loss of sensitive information.  As a long time bank employee, I am not familiar with any such regulations governing mortgage brokers; so I can&#039;t speak to the safety measures used by brokers.

The bottom line is, if you want a new loan in this current environment; be prepared to provide documentation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RS Form 4506-T allows lenders to verify that the tax return copy (stating w-2 wages, investment income, sole proprietorship income, capital gains, rental property income, s corp, partnership, LLC and or trust income) match was filed with the IRS. Prior to banks requiring borrower signatures on this form; borrowers would inflate income numbers to qualify for loans that their IRS filed income would not allow them to qualify.  This is only one small example of how Banks/Federal regulators are slow to find a solution to fraud. It will take many years for the banks/regulators to undo the mess that has been unfolding for the past few years. </p>
<p>The current environment is full documentation required; meaning every penny of income, assets and existing outstanding debt is verified.  If a borrower wishes to refinance their existing mortgage or apply for a 1st time mortgage, be prepared for the overwhelming documentation requested by your lender. </p>
<p>As for privacy concerns, every bank employee must sign a document, with penalty of termination; to state that we will safeguard all customer and prospective customer &#8220;sensitive&#8221; information. Bank&#8217;s are under Federal Regulations to ensure that their employees comply with those regulations, with fear of substantial penalties and damages for loss of sensitive information.  As a long time bank employee, I am not familiar with any such regulations governing mortgage brokers; so I can&#8217;t speak to the safety measures used by brokers.</p>
<p>The bottom line is, if you want a new loan in this current environment; be prepared to provide documentation.</p>
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		<title>By: D</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11664</link>
		<dc:creator>D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11664</guid>
		<description>@Financial Samurai

If I understand the question properly, the broker/bank isn&#039;t asking these questions directly.  Instead, they are asking for complete tax returns, which happen to include such information.

Your bank has some strict regulations regarding your financial information.  If you&#039;re going through your current bank, the information you give them probably falls under those protections.

If you&#039;re going with a new bank, however, you may have less protections.

Things get even worse when you&#039;re dealing with a broker.  I&#039;m not sure if they have any regulation that dictates how they handle financial information.  

Even if they do, the current sentiment is that brokers&#039;/banks&#039; violation of regulations is part of the reason behind the subprime fiasco.  How much can you really trust them?  After the Great Depression, people didn&#039;t trust bankers for a generation.  Perhaps we&#039;ll see something similar this time.

Unfortunately, I&#039;m not sure there&#039;s anything you can do.  Ultimately, the banks/brokers have a lot more power in the negotiation than you do.  And, the individual you are dealing with likely doesn&#039;t have the authority to waive documentation requirements, especially in the current climate.

Perhaps you can work with a broker and tell them that you&#039;re not willing to give these kinds of information.  Ask them to shop around for a bank that doesn&#039;t require it.  You may be forced to pay a premium in terms of your interest rate, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Financial Samurai</p>
<p>If I understand the question properly, the broker/bank isn&#8217;t asking these questions directly.  Instead, they are asking for complete tax returns, which happen to include such information.</p>
<p>Your bank has some strict regulations regarding your financial information.  If you&#8217;re going through your current bank, the information you give them probably falls under those protections.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going with a new bank, however, you may have less protections.</p>
<p>Things get even worse when you&#8217;re dealing with a broker.  I&#8217;m not sure if they have any regulation that dictates how they handle financial information.  </p>
<p>Even if they do, the current sentiment is that brokers&#8217;/banks&#8217; violation of regulations is part of the reason behind the subprime fiasco.  How much can you really trust them?  After the Great Depression, people didn&#8217;t trust bankers for a generation.  Perhaps we&#8217;ll see something similar this time.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I&#8217;m not sure there&#8217;s anything you can do.  Ultimately, the banks/brokers have a lot more power in the negotiation than you do.  And, the individual you are dealing with likely doesn&#8217;t have the authority to waive documentation requirements, especially in the current climate.</p>
<p>Perhaps you can work with a broker and tell them that you&#8217;re not willing to give these kinds of information.  Ask them to shop around for a bank that doesn&#8217;t require it.  You may be forced to pay a premium in terms of your interest rate, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Financial Samurai</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11615</link>
		<dc:creator>Financial Samurai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 06:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11615</guid>
		<description>Weird, I&#039;ve never been asked that kind of personal stuff before and I&#039;ve bought multiple properties.

Maybe the lender is just trying to hit on you?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weird, I&#8217;ve never been asked that kind of personal stuff before and I&#8217;ve bought multiple properties.</p>
<p>Maybe the lender is just trying to hit on you?!</p>
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		<title>By: Sophie</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11593</link>
		<dc:creator>Sophie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11593</guid>
		<description>Alex, your reader should read this page
http://www.sfchronicle.us/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/11/REAJ1A1H1A.DTL

it&#039;s a Chron (local) article from october 11th (recent).
And it also raises abuse risks .. altho it doesn&#039;t provide any detail, nor solutions beside reading twice before signing anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, your reader should read this page<br />
<a href="http://www.sfchronicle.us/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/11/REAJ1A1H1A.DTL" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfchronicle.us/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/11/REAJ1A1H1A.DTL</a></p>
<p>it&#8217;s a Chron (local) article from october 11th (recent).<br />
And it also raises abuse risks .. altho it doesn&#8217;t provide any detail, nor solutions beside reading twice before signing anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Noel</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11592</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11592</guid>
		<description>Political donations aren&#039;t tax deductible, so that&#039;s a bit of a red herring.

Regarding the requirement you include all your tax return schedules, the bank is trying to assess the likelihood that you will be able to pay back your loan. This is more than income/assets/debts. Expenses are also material to the evaluation. They&#039;d be irresponsible not to try to ascertain the cost of your day-to-day life: childcare, education, medical or anything else. If any of these elements comprises a larger-than-standard portion of your income, they need to evaluate your application and your ability to pay in that light. 

If I make $200,000 and regularly have medical costs of $40K annually, I am a very different borrower than if I have only non-deductible medical expenses (less than 7% of income), and the difference in the amount of mortgage I could afford would be nearly $100,000. 

As for how much the information is worth, that&#039;s a totally personal decision. It clearly comes through in your post that this really bothers you, so my advice would be to think about whether you are 25 basis points of uncomfortable (or 50bp, or whatever you believe you can save). If your employer offered you an annual raise of this amount, in exchange for your providing this information, would you take it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Political donations aren&#8217;t tax deductible, so that&#8217;s a bit of a red herring.</p>
<p>Regarding the requirement you include all your tax return schedules, the bank is trying to assess the likelihood that you will be able to pay back your loan. This is more than income/assets/debts. Expenses are also material to the evaluation. They&#8217;d be irresponsible not to try to ascertain the cost of your day-to-day life: childcare, education, medical or anything else. If any of these elements comprises a larger-than-standard portion of your income, they need to evaluate your application and your ability to pay in that light. </p>
<p>If I make $200,000 and regularly have medical costs of $40K annually, I am a very different borrower than if I have only non-deductible medical expenses (less than 7% of income), and the difference in the amount of mortgage I could afford would be nearly $100,000. </p>
<p>As for how much the information is worth, that&#8217;s a totally personal decision. It clearly comes through in your post that this really bothers you, so my advice would be to think about whether you are 25 basis points of uncomfortable (or 50bp, or whatever you believe you can save). If your employer offered you an annual raise of this amount, in exchange for your providing this information, would you take it?</p>
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		<title>By: Sophie</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11591</link>
		<dc:creator>Sophie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11591</guid>
		<description>interesting debate. how does it look like for first time borrowers? Anybody here applying for a primary mortgage right now? what is your lander asking/did ask?

and i don&#039;t get the &quot;not blacking out&quot; thing.... what does it prove, or what does it not prove?
I think I need to read my own tax return with those questions in mind - page by page, line by line.

-----------
on the 4506 T form. What is that form? 
I find this:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_form_4506-T_and_when_is_it_used
anybody has seen one before? what is different between the IRS printout and the 1040?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting debate. how does it look like for first time borrowers? Anybody here applying for a primary mortgage right now? what is your lander asking/did ask?</p>
<p>and i don&#8217;t get the &#8220;not blacking out&#8221; thing&#8230;. what does it prove, or what does it not prove?<br />
I think I need to read my own tax return with those questions in mind &#8211; page by page, line by line.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
on the 4506 T form. What is that form?<br />
I find this:<br />
<a href="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_form_4506-T_and_when_is_it_used" rel="nofollow">http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_form_4506-T_and_when_is_it_used</a><br />
anybody has seen one before? what is different between the IRS printout and the 1040?</p>
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		<title>By: noearch</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11589</link>
		<dc:creator>noearch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11589</guid>
		<description>ok, I agree in principle with that, but that does NOT give a bank or lending institution the right to unethical practices...like asking to see info about medical issues, religious donations,political affiliations,etc. 

Why shouldn&#039;t the borrower be allowed to blank out those areas on the 1040 tax form? just because that info is on the tax return does not mean the bank needs to see it to qualify the person for a loan or re-fi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok, I agree in principle with that, but that does NOT give a bank or lending institution the right to unethical practices&#8230;like asking to see info about medical issues, religious donations,political affiliations,etc. </p>
<p>Why shouldn&#8217;t the borrower be allowed to blank out those areas on the 1040 tax form? just because that info is on the tax return does not mean the bank needs to see it to qualify the person for a loan or re-fi.</p>
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		<title>By: Asad</title>
		<link>http://thefrontsteps.com/2009/11/03/ask-us-do-lenders-really-need-all-that-private-information/comment-page-1/#comment-11588</link>
		<dc:creator>Asad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thefrontsteps.com/?p=5774#comment-11588</guid>
		<description>look you don&#039;t get to set what the bank asks for unfortunately, we tried that before and it didn&#039;t work.  As everyone else has already noted you are not forced to refi and they are not forced to lend to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>look you don&#8217;t get to set what the bank asks for unfortunately, we tried that before and it didn&#8217;t work.  As everyone else has already noted you are not forced to refi and they are not forced to lend to you.</p>
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